JUDITH RICHARDS: Was that because you didn't know that they would be able to teach you something? And I mean, when Iaestheticsmy aesthetics are a little sensitive, so I do haveI did buy a Gropius house that Hans Wegner did the interior of. You know, and I was trying to do my best to go along with that because I thought it was a ticket to yet another city. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I said, "No, that's good. It wasit was a vestige of youth. You're welcome. So it wasyou know, thatit's not as if you canat the level we're talking about in paleontology, there's not many opportunities. However, the Sebastiano Ricci that they had was also a masterpiece, and, you know, I spent a lot of time staring at it, and I remember the detail that made me think, All right, I'll ask about that as well. And I said, "I'm not going back to school. 
CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, I don't keep much at home in London. I probably should, but, you know. So. Our older colleagues might have found it charlatanism, but that's understandable. So we brought those things together; we did a big show, and we borrowed from major collections. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you start to spend more time in New York, or that's auction? CLIFFORD SCHORER: plan, and obviously, it's allthe vicissitudes of fate will intervene, I'm sure, if I live long enough, but provided that I don't need the resources to live and provided that I haven't had anI haven't found that Leonardo to buy where I need to sell everythingthen obviously, I willright now, everything is intended as a gift to the institution where it's on loan, if I die while anything is there, and thenand thereafter we probably willif we move things around, we'll probably make accommodations.
JUDITH RICHARDS: The Lewises [Sydney and Frances]. It was just books on subjects that interested me. It's the Dutch, rather than the Japanese. I wish I had. clifford schorer winslow homer. After colonial service in Jamaica and Hong Kong, the Blakes retired to Myrtle Grove in Youghal, County Cork, Ireland. I was actually shockedso the Worcester Art Museumyou know, I had been there and had been president for a couple of years and was actually shocked when they put up this board in the lobby, you know, of yourof the donors and their annual giving. So if Anthony decides he wants to do a show, they get together; they decide what the show will be, and then Anna takes charge of all the sort of managerial tasks involved with that. Is this Crespi?" You could buy things in Europe and sort of do your best to get them home. And I'm reminded that recently I was traveling around TEFAF [The European Fine Art Fair] with the curator from Antwerpthe chief curatorand we found a Chinese 18th-century Qianlong export plate with a Rubensa very sort of adulterated Rubens painting on it.
He told mehe shared that with me when I was 26, which I had not known. And when Freeport got a little too rough for them, because they were living in a part of town that had gone down quite a bit since they bought in the 1940s. WebView Cliff Schorers professional profile on LinkedIn. Yeah, pre-that buildingto the Louvre, to, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: under the circumstances. But I think that what keeps you in historic art is that that often is where your passion is, and you're bucking the trend, the business trend, but I think that, you know, it provides you with such personal satisfaction. You're going to findthere are going to be many more. And if you can't get more than 20,000 people in here, you've got a serious problem. He says, "No, I didn't." We can cover a lot of auctions in a night. And not being so much in business? And also, my grandparents wanted me to be a child. So I went to TEFAF; Hall & Knight hadthis must have been 2000had a phenomenal booth. You know, they were careful. That is a harder issue for the contemporary world, I think.
So, I mean, you know, I learned to read a tiny bit. So I went to Gillette, and they hadthey were looking for a programmer analysta senior programmer analyst. JUDITH RICHARDS: How important is that to you? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it is. I mean, I don't obsess over, you know, things that I consider decor in a way. I spoke to others who came to buy for their trade. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I was livingI was in Paris a lot. They were independent at that point; now they work for Christie's, and then theyactually, recently they've left Christie's; one has left Christie's and the other has as well. JUDITH RICHARDS: So have you been collecting in some other, noncompetitive area?
It was a Saint Sebastian. The work was painted in the Bahamas in 1885. I mean. And they had to water it with a watering spray gun. JUDITH RICHARDS: In those yearsso we're talking about your teens and maybe early 20s. Those things are fun. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you donated the piece, or you donated the funds for them to purchase the piece? Now, the difference is that in, you knowobviously, in relative dollars, in 1900 you may have sold 1,001 paintings, but, you know, at an average price of 28 guineas. [They laugh.] And that was because they could be. CLIFFORD SCHORER: He took a much more traditionalwell, traditional, if anything in my house could be traditional. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that the first time you've encountered that kind of [laughs] situation? So I wrote that program in a month. Because I know I started my business in 1983, in March, and that wasI was 17 then. Other people who you could talk to about becomingabout this passion? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I said, you know, "That's incredible.". ", You know, these might not beor they might be; I don't want to opine on that. JUDITH RICHARDS: Given that you were obviously a smart child. And this was an example of something that they made to commemorate the 100-year anniversary, probably around 1744 or so, of the VOC [United East India Company] making entres into China to sell the export goods. [00:14:00]. And knowing, of course, that, you know, in a way, sort of on day one, my business challenge was to take a business that was burning, you know, [] 8 million in losses, and flip it off instantly and reopen it as a business that would basically break even or make money, because I was not in the business of buying a company simply to continue the legacy losses of the previous ownership. It was about 200 pounds. You know, they can figure outso, JUDITH RICHARDS: I think I came across the name Schorer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I don't want to really have things that can be damaged by other people's negligence, so it's just better not to do it. But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. So what's happened, I've seen, is there's been a decoupling ofthe top one percent of the market has soared. So did that affect your interest at all? That is the way they were then, yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: And he drove a Model T? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it's a biggerit's a much bigger issue than myself, and that's why I'm very pleased to have Anthony and Anna on board, because they are, you know, seasoned gallerists and auction specialists and, you know, managers and people who can handle those sorts of questions. They just simply said, you know, "No mas." The shareholders did very well by the real estate. The neighborhoods that I knew. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were therein that fieldbecause I don't know the field very wellis it difficult tois itare there issues of fakes? "The auction is coming up." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, we have to pick our battles carefully. And so, yes, there are those amazing, you know, random fate intersections, but they're notthey're certainly not something that happen often enough to warrant, you know, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Five years later, I might find a, you know, Salvator Rosa figure, or a print. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you happen to be able to have this person who [laughs] shows you proof, too. And I think, in a way, my art world is still centered in London a little bit. So we just talked all night in the lounge at the hotel, the whole night, just, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, about this painting and that painting, where it came from andyou know. JUDITH RICHARDS: There isn't a lot of coverage of Italians, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I read articles in the Burlington, I read articles in, you know, Prospettiva, you know, yes. So, yes, I mean, I lend. You know, if it rises to that levelI mean, there's an old joke about the museum world is nothing but one big conflict of interest. JUDITH RICHARDS: And most of the people bidding at auction in those days were the wholesalers. I was very impressed with all of it, you know; the effort as a dealer was astonishing. I'll happily have lunch tomorrow." Do they focus entirely on Rubens or Rubens and his, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Rubens and his orbit, yeah. And so, you know, I bought a territory with a partner, and we have a territory, and basically, you know, we go to an annual meeting, and we have a dinner with the managers, and that's ourso, in a sense, I was able to sort of extract myself from project-based businesses to at least have this background income that would support a very marginal lifestyle, which is what I live. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Only well after that.
Their corrections and emendations appear below in brackets with initials. So when I turned 15 and a half, I think, I was legally able to leave high school. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I have. So there wasn't any collecting going on at that point. As they tend to do. JUDITH RICHARDS: But what about the issue of who do they actually belong to, and do they belong to the culture, the local museum? So that'syou know, the reality is though, that that painting will never come my way, so I have toto go back to this question, has my philosophy about this changed in the course of it? I mean, my desire to not live there. But my desire to live in the middle of nowherethis was in Meriden, New Hampshire, which was literally the middle of nowherewith 400 other. And Iand Iyou know, obviously, there's a lot more material. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And he's a very entertaining historian. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you own any van Dycks, or have you? [00:52:00], So, you know, in that case, I went myself; looked at it; liked it; made an irrevocable bid; and bought it at the auction and then brought that immediately to London; gave it to them; and they're running with it. Not, Were they scientifically designed fakes made to deceive? But no, I mean, it's not [00:40:05]. I'm actually building a building in Massachusetts for that, which. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, an art handler to move things around. I don't know that I ever, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, other than going there and looking at things. We love her. They just have both retired from us. I'm done. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, it was the right moment. I said, "One of the greatest bronzes on the planet is in Plovdiv in the Communist Workers' Party headquarters in a plastic box." You know, you name it. I mean [00:47:59]. And eventually we agreed to part friends. And, obviously, that is the sort of the genesis of the great collections that just got given to Boston. But I was definitely a museum-goer. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: You were traveling a lot in the '80s. The interview was conducted by Judith Olch Richards forthe Archives of American Art and the Center for the History of Collecting in America at the Frick Art Reference Library of The Frick Collection, and took place at the offices of the Archives of American Art in New York, NY. Was it something you had been looking for as an opportunity? So it was quite easy to understand the. I think there are two different pieces of advice, of course. And his son, Caleb, is also deceased. I mean, I have a fewI have a print from a Bulgarian art show from 1890. The painting was featured in the second episode of the BBC TV programme, Fake or Fortune? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, did I read articles? CLIFFORD SCHORER: no, my father lived in New York. And I'm thinking, Who are these people? [Laughs.]. I'm at a Skinner auction. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was there a particular person who was your mentor? CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was a good, you know, three or four years of financing deals that, you know, I found particularly exciting and interesting, and the paintings that we were ablethat I was able to sort of touch in an abstract way were paintings I could never otherwise touch. Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, it helped to give the Worcester Art Museum the breathing space to get their spendI think this year their spend is down to 5.8 percent of endowment, which is the lowest I've ever seen, by an enormous amount. He was a very important stamp collector. [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I didn't want sunlight. For example, I am a big fan of [Giulio Cesare] Procaccini. JUDITH RICHARDS: What year would that be? But you know, of course, he's not writingin my mind, I think of him as a historian rather than an art historian. And that was another thing, too. CLIFFORD SCHORER: They have their own studio. [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The MFA. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But, I mean, I love opening those folders and just finding out what was sold in 1937 to. And you know, we just spoke the other day. Having old art in New England is not the easiest thing, because of humidity control, which is almost impossible. And it wasn't mine. You know, the average home really can't take a panel painting because of the climate changes, you know, the humidity changes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, that's changed. I'd write a letter and say, you know, "I think this is by Crespi." [Laughs.] He said, "Well, we'll make you a Corporator." And, of course, I know that one of the great loves of art for me is that I cannot; I could not; I'm incapable. We made pigments; we ground pigments; we made egg tempera. And everything else, they don't care about. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you learn that as a child? And I left and I started the company. So I mean, you know, it's fun. I assumed, like most Eastern European cities that are on the antiquities tour, that most of the great things were moved to the capitals. So I asked my partnerI said, "Call over the person here. In other words, they were things that wouldn't have been brought to me, and certainly wouldn't have been brought to me at the wholesale level, so to speak, and I couldn't have bought them by myself because of the dealer profit involved. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sure. [00:16:01]. And so the National Gallery has our historic stock books and archive. I mean, my family on my mother's sideagain, it's interesting. [00:06:02]. And the. So that's a hugeI mean, fiscally, they were on a path to 10 years and the money would be gone, back in the day, because you know, they were spending eight to nine percent plus capital, you know, plus cap ex, and you can't do that, you know; grandma's jewels only last so long. So, yes. But no, I mean, I can'tI didn't think it was a subjectI understood that it wasthese were products made for the export market. And in my new home in BostonI just got a small place to replace my big house because I needed a place to sleep when I'm in Boston. You know, it's interesting to me, because I'm an advocate for that market. I took a little bit of a detour towards the pure craft in the Song dynasty monochromes, but, I mean, one must imagine that in the eighth and ninth centuries in China, they were a thousand years ahead of Europe, and to me, thatyou know, they were creating perfection in porcelain a thousand years before the Europeans even understood what porcelain was. I meanso I had a partner in Montreal. In every house, there are 15 of them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and that's an area that, as I've expanded my interest in, because Agnew's has such a deep archive on that material, so, you know, one of the first big projects we did with Anthony [Crichton-Stuart] was a phenomenal Pre-Raphaelite exhibition and show, and, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: Does Agnew's publish? And I think her contribution to the house was some amazing curtains, which cost me a fortune. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was that coincidence that you ran into them? I mean, you know, that's. It was a very beautiful, 18th-century French frame on this Italian, Neapolitan, somewhat good 17th-century painting. I think I was a substitute hitter that day, sobecause I think they had somebody else lined up who couldn't make it. And, you know, I basically said, you know, "Is there anything you'd like from me?" So, I hadit's an unlined painting, so I said, "Well, it's a little fragile." You know, because she died in this plague. [00:18:00]. 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CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, I don't keep much at home in London. I probably should, but, you know. So. Our older colleagues might have found it charlatanism, but that's understandable. So we brought those things together; we did a big show, and we borrowed from major collections. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you start to spend more time in New York, or that's auction? CLIFFORD SCHORER: plan, and obviously, it's allthe vicissitudes of fate will intervene, I'm sure, if I live long enough, but provided that I don't need the resources to live and provided that I haven't had anI haven't found that Leonardo to buy where I need to sell everythingthen obviously, I willright now, everything is intended as a gift to the institution where it's on loan, if I die while anything is there, and thenand thereafter we probably willif we move things around, we'll probably make accommodations. JUDITH RICHARDS: The Lewises [Sydney and Frances]. It was just books on subjects that interested me. It's the Dutch, rather than the Japanese. I wish I had. clifford schorer winslow homer. After colonial service in Jamaica and Hong Kong, the Blakes retired to Myrtle Grove in Youghal, County Cork, Ireland. I was actually shockedso the Worcester Art Museumyou know, I had been there and had been president for a couple of years and was actually shocked when they put up this board in the lobby, you know, of yourof the donors and their annual giving. So if Anthony decides he wants to do a show, they get together; they decide what the show will be, and then Anna takes charge of all the sort of managerial tasks involved with that. Is this Crespi?" You could buy things in Europe and sort of do your best to get them home. And I'm reminded that recently I was traveling around TEFAF [The European Fine Art Fair] with the curator from Antwerpthe chief curatorand we found a Chinese 18th-century Qianlong export plate with a Rubensa very sort of adulterated Rubens painting on it.
He told mehe shared that with me when I was 26, which I had not known. And when Freeport got a little too rough for them, because they were living in a part of town that had gone down quite a bit since they bought in the 1940s. WebView Cliff Schorers professional profile on LinkedIn. Yeah, pre-that buildingto the Louvre, to, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: under the circumstances. But I think that what keeps you in historic art is that that often is where your passion is, and you're bucking the trend, the business trend, but I think that, you know, it provides you with such personal satisfaction. You're going to findthere are going to be many more. And if you can't get more than 20,000 people in here, you've got a serious problem. He says, "No, I didn't." We can cover a lot of auctions in a night. And not being so much in business? And also, my grandparents wanted me to be a child. So I went to TEFAF; Hall & Knight hadthis must have been 2000had a phenomenal booth. You know, they were careful. That is a harder issue for the contemporary world, I think.
So, I mean, you know, I learned to read a tiny bit. So I went to Gillette, and they hadthey were looking for a programmer analysta senior programmer analyst. JUDITH RICHARDS: How important is that to you? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it is. I mean, I don't obsess over, you know, things that I consider decor in a way. I spoke to others who came to buy for their trade. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I was livingI was in Paris a lot. They were independent at that point; now they work for Christie's, and then theyactually, recently they've left Christie's; one has left Christie's and the other has as well. JUDITH RICHARDS: So have you been collecting in some other, noncompetitive area?
It was a Saint Sebastian. The work was painted in the Bahamas in 1885. I mean. And they had to water it with a watering spray gun. JUDITH RICHARDS: In those yearsso we're talking about your teens and maybe early 20s. Those things are fun. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you donated the piece, or you donated the funds for them to purchase the piece? Now, the difference is that in, you knowobviously, in relative dollars, in 1900 you may have sold 1,001 paintings, but, you know, at an average price of 28 guineas. [They laugh.] And that was because they could be. CLIFFORD SCHORER: He took a much more traditionalwell, traditional, if anything in my house could be traditional. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that the first time you've encountered that kind of [laughs] situation? So I wrote that program in a month. Because I know I started my business in 1983, in March, and that wasI was 17 then. Other people who you could talk to about becomingabout this passion? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I said, you know, "That's incredible.". ", You know, these might not beor they might be; I don't want to opine on that. JUDITH RICHARDS: Given that you were obviously a smart child. And this was an example of something that they made to commemorate the 100-year anniversary, probably around 1744 or so, of the VOC [United East India Company] making entres into China to sell the export goods. [00:14:00]. And knowing, of course, that, you know, in a way, sort of on day one, my business challenge was to take a business that was burning, you know, [] 8 million in losses, and flip it off instantly and reopen it as a business that would basically break even or make money, because I was not in the business of buying a company simply to continue the legacy losses of the previous ownership. It was about 200 pounds. You know, they can figure outso, JUDITH RICHARDS: I think I came across the name Schorer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I don't want to really have things that can be damaged by other people's negligence, so it's just better not to do it. But I think that afterand this is why I talk about when the Chinese entered the marketplace. So what's happened, I've seen, is there's been a decoupling ofthe top one percent of the market has soared. So did that affect your interest at all? That is the way they were then, yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: And he drove a Model T? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, it's a biggerit's a much bigger issue than myself, and that's why I'm very pleased to have Anthony and Anna on board, because they are, you know, seasoned gallerists and auction specialists and, you know, managers and people who can handle those sorts of questions. They just simply said, you know, "No mas." The shareholders did very well by the real estate. The neighborhoods that I knew. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were therein that fieldbecause I don't know the field very wellis it difficult tois itare there issues of fakes? "The auction is coming up." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, we have to pick our battles carefully. And so, yes, there are those amazing, you know, random fate intersections, but they're notthey're certainly not something that happen often enough to warrant, you know, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Five years later, I might find a, you know, Salvator Rosa figure, or a print. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you happen to be able to have this person who [laughs] shows you proof, too. And I think, in a way, my art world is still centered in London a little bit. So we just talked all night in the lounge at the hotel, the whole night, just, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, about this painting and that painting, where it came from andyou know. JUDITH RICHARDS: There isn't a lot of coverage of Italians, CLIFFORD SCHORER: I read articles in the Burlington, I read articles in, you know, Prospettiva, you know, yes. So, yes, I mean, I lend. You know, if it rises to that levelI mean, there's an old joke about the museum world is nothing but one big conflict of interest. JUDITH RICHARDS: And most of the people bidding at auction in those days were the wholesalers. I was very impressed with all of it, you know; the effort as a dealer was astonishing. I'll happily have lunch tomorrow." Do they focus entirely on Rubens or Rubens and his, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Rubens and his orbit, yeah. And so, you know, I bought a territory with a partner, and we have a territory, and basically, you know, we go to an annual meeting, and we have a dinner with the managers, and that's ourso, in a sense, I was able to sort of extract myself from project-based businesses to at least have this background income that would support a very marginal lifestyle, which is what I live. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Only well after that.
Their corrections and emendations appear below in brackets with initials. So when I turned 15 and a half, I think, I was legally able to leave high school. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I have. So there wasn't any collecting going on at that point. As they tend to do. JUDITH RICHARDS: But what about the issue of who do they actually belong to, and do they belong to the culture, the local museum? So that'syou know, the reality is though, that that painting will never come my way, so I have toto go back to this question, has my philosophy about this changed in the course of it? I mean, my desire to not live there. But my desire to live in the middle of nowherethis was in Meriden, New Hampshire, which was literally the middle of nowherewith 400 other. And Iand Iyou know, obviously, there's a lot more material. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And he's a very entertaining historian. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you own any van Dycks, or have you? [00:52:00], So, you know, in that case, I went myself; looked at it; liked it; made an irrevocable bid; and bought it at the auction and then brought that immediately to London; gave it to them; and they're running with it. Not, Were they scientifically designed fakes made to deceive? But no, I mean, it's not [00:40:05]. I'm actually building a building in Massachusetts for that, which. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, an art handler to move things around. I don't know that I ever, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, other than going there and looking at things. We love her. They just have both retired from us. I'm done. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, it was the right moment. I said, "One of the greatest bronzes on the planet is in Plovdiv in the Communist Workers' Party headquarters in a plastic box." You know, you name it. I mean [00:47:59]. And eventually we agreed to part friends. And, obviously, that is the sort of the genesis of the great collections that just got given to Boston. But I was definitely a museum-goer. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: You were traveling a lot in the '80s. The interview was conducted by Judith Olch Richards forthe Archives of American Art and the Center for the History of Collecting in America at the Frick Art Reference Library of The Frick Collection, and took place at the offices of the Archives of American Art in New York, NY. Was it something you had been looking for as an opportunity? So it was quite easy to understand the. I think there are two different pieces of advice, of course. And his son, Caleb, is also deceased. I mean, I have a fewI have a print from a Bulgarian art show from 1890. The painting was featured in the second episode of the BBC TV programme, Fake or Fortune? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, did I read articles? CLIFFORD SCHORER: no, my father lived in New York. And I'm thinking, Who are these people? [Laughs.]. I'm at a Skinner auction. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was there a particular person who was your mentor? CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was a good, you know, three or four years of financing deals that, you know, I found particularly exciting and interesting, and the paintings that we were ablethat I was able to sort of touch in an abstract way were paintings I could never otherwise touch. Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I mean, it helped to give the Worcester Art Museum the breathing space to get their spendI think this year their spend is down to 5.8 percent of endowment, which is the lowest I've ever seen, by an enormous amount. He was a very important stamp collector. [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I didn't want sunlight. For example, I am a big fan of [Giulio Cesare] Procaccini. JUDITH RICHARDS: What year would that be? But you know, of course, he's not writingin my mind, I think of him as a historian rather than an art historian. And that was another thing, too. CLIFFORD SCHORER: They have their own studio. [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The MFA. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But, I mean, I love opening those folders and just finding out what was sold in 1937 to. And you know, we just spoke the other day. Having old art in New England is not the easiest thing, because of humidity control, which is almost impossible. And it wasn't mine. You know, the average home really can't take a panel painting because of the climate changes, you know, the humidity changes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, that's changed. I'd write a letter and say, you know, "I think this is by Crespi." [Laughs.] He said, "Well, we'll make you a Corporator." And, of course, I know that one of the great loves of art for me is that I cannot; I could not; I'm incapable. We made pigments; we ground pigments; we made egg tempera. And everything else, they don't care about. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you learn that as a child? And I left and I started the company. So I mean, you know, it's fun. I assumed, like most Eastern European cities that are on the antiquities tour, that most of the great things were moved to the capitals. So I asked my partnerI said, "Call over the person here. In other words, they were things that wouldn't have been brought to me, and certainly wouldn't have been brought to me at the wholesale level, so to speak, and I couldn't have bought them by myself because of the dealer profit involved. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sure. [00:16:01]. And so the National Gallery has our historic stock books and archive. I mean, my family on my mother's sideagain, it's interesting. [00:06:02]. And the. So that's a hugeI mean, fiscally, they were on a path to 10 years and the money would be gone, back in the day, because you know, they were spending eight to nine percent plus capital, you know, plus cap ex, and you can't do that, you know; grandma's jewels only last so long. So, yes. But no, I mean, I can'tI didn't think it was a subjectI understood that it wasthese were products made for the export market. And in my new home in BostonI just got a small place to replace my big house because I needed a place to sleep when I'm in Boston. You know, it's interesting to me, because I'm an advocate for that market. I took a little bit of a detour towards the pure craft in the Song dynasty monochromes, but, I mean, one must imagine that in the eighth and ninth centuries in China, they were a thousand years ahead of Europe, and to me, thatyou know, they were creating perfection in porcelain a thousand years before the Europeans even understood what porcelain was. I meanso I had a partner in Montreal. In every house, there are 15 of them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and that's an area that, as I've expanded my interest in, because Agnew's has such a deep archive on that material, so, you know, one of the first big projects we did with Anthony [Crichton-Stuart] was a phenomenal Pre-Raphaelite exhibition and show, and, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: Does Agnew's publish? And I think her contribution to the house was some amazing curtains, which cost me a fortune. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was that coincidence that you ran into them? I mean, you know, that's. It was a very beautiful, 18th-century French frame on this Italian, Neapolitan, somewhat good 17th-century painting. I think I was a substitute hitter that day, sobecause I think they had somebody else lined up who couldn't make it. And, you know, I basically said, you know, "Is there anything you'd like from me?" So, I hadit's an unlined painting, so I said, "Well, it's a little fragile." You know, because she died in this plague. [00:18:00]. 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